## New Community Site Planning Update

For new community stuff, my current plan is to have:

• Critical Fallibilism website with curated articles (likely jekyll, wordpress or ghost)
• Critical Fallibilism forum, publicly viewable, $20 for an account that can post (Discourse is the leading candidate) • Critical Fallibilism youtube channel • maybe a new email newsletter setup (or have a way to get email notifications about new articles). or maybe keep using current email newsletter or kill it. Currently planning to name it Critical Fallibilism b/c that sounds like the name of a philosophy. It has downsides (particularly it could sound too sophisticated and intimidate people). I considered some other names but I think an "ism" that sounds like a philosophy is better overall than something like "Learn, Judge, Act" or "Decisive Arguments" cuz ppl won't immediately know what that is. Those don't really work as a brand name either. Plan is other stuff goes mostly inactive, e.g. Discord, FI google group and curi.us. I think people misuse chatrooms to try to say stuff that should be on a forum, so I'm inclined to just not have a chatroom in order to better focus all discussion in one place. Taking suggestions on what website software to use and taking offers of help. If making suggestions, FYI one of the main requirements for stuff is markdown support. The purpose of paywalling forum posting is to increase quality and keep out harassers, not to make meaningful amounts of money. I want somewhere good to discuss long term with good features. I think custom software is too much work and isn't going to happen. (Some coding help offers fell through. I don't want to spend the time to code a lot of features myself. I could code something simple like curi.us myself but I think getting modern features is a better plan.) I plan to have different subforums. Current concept is something like: • Unbounded Critical Discussion • Main • Debate • Other • Casual, Gentle Learning • Main • Technical Details • Other • Elliot's articles • Community That's 2 main areas with 3 subforums in each, and then 2 additional subforums. "Casual, Gentle Learning" name is to be decided (suggestions welcome). The point is to have a section for more criticism and analysis of what ppl say and do (e.g. social dynamics, memes and dishonesty that they do), where you can't control critical tangents, discussions don't get ignored or forgotten after some time passes. etc. And a section for ppl (or specific topics) who don't want to deal with that and want to just arbitrarily, casually drop discussions, ignore relevant discussion continuations, ask a question and never follow up, not do Paths Forward, act socially normally etc. A different way to view the distinction is a section limited to socially normal criticism and a section for rational criticism that could seem overly rude or aggressive to ppl. And persistence and criticism of things seen as tangential or irrelevant to the original topic are two of the main ways that comes up. In Gentle, if ppl wanna drop an issue they can just drop it. In Unbounded, you can't just drop a discussion and make a new topic about something else. If you post a new thread, ppl might respond about the pattern of not finishing discussions then creating new threads, but in Gentle they won't do that. Unbounded is the section where discussions can involve reading a book and then coming back and continuing. It's where people might actually do whatever is effective to seek the truth without putting any arbitrary limits on it. Part of the point – which I know ppl don't want – is to label who is actually presenting serious ideas in the public square for consideration as the best existing ideas, and who is not making serious claims meant to contribute to human knowledge. People want ambiguity about how good or serious their posts are. Anyway I'll try to come up with a reasonably tactful but also reasonably clear way to explain the distinction for the forum. "Technical Details" is meant for stuff that isn't of general interest or isn't accessible to everyone, e.g. posts involving coding or math (that way Main only has stuff for everyone). I'm not sure if having that subforum exist is necessary/worthwhile or not. I don't have that separation in the unbounded forum b/c topics there have no boundaries on what could be included – in other words, whatever topic you bring up, you can't know in advance that replies won't use math. The "Other" sections will allow off-topic discussion, including politics, food, music and gaming. Main will allow a lot of topics but not everything. You could post about food, music or gaming in Main if your post had explicit philosophical analysis and learning stuff, so it was really obviously relevant to a rationality forum. But if you wanna talk about those things at all normally just put it in Other. I think abstract political philosophy or economics would be OK in Main but no discussions about current political news or events – those have to go in Other (or Debate). I plan to post less in the Casual section than the Unbounded section. I want to have somewhere I can do share my full critical analysis of stuff. I plan to restrict that criticism to: • public figures • publications (books, articles, serious blogs) • public examples (reddit threads, tweets, casual blogs). i could omit the name and link cuz i don't wanna get them any negative attention but i like sources, context and giving credit, so undecided on the best way to handle this. (suggestions?) • stuff posted in the Unbounded section And I also plan to check with people who are new to that section that they know what they're consenting to and let them back out and be like "nevermind I'll go use the gentle section". I think just "this person posted in this section" isn't enough for nubs and they should be asked too before getting full crit. I'll also have a general recommendation written somewhere that new posters who aren't familiar with the community should use the Gentle section for at least a month. One awkwardness is people might consent to receive criticism but then want to back out after receiving some criticism, but I don't want to delete analysis that's already written, nor do I want to stop analyzing something if I started posting analysis and thinking it through and still have more to say, nor do I want to stop other people from taking an interest, responding to my analysis, starting their own analysis, etc. after critical analysis has begun. Thoughts on how to handle that? (Note: I hope to disable deleting posts and/or save version history.) Maybe once there is an example of what ppl don't like, we can make ppl say they've read it and are OK with it b4 they can post in Unbounded. Hopefully the casual/gentle section will provide most of what people wanted from a chatroom while being way better organized. Elliot Temple on April 18, 2021 ## Messages (38) The name Critical Fallibilism is slightly in use. There are just a few hits on the internet which are CR related and Lakatos: https://www.joachim-zelter.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/JZelter.-CRITICAL-FALLIBILISM.pdf https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/42718/ https://medium.com/kühner-kommentar/feyerabend-v-lakatos-on-post-truth-3ff586379590 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-94-017-0769-5_11 https://books.google.com/books?id=IHm0sJ6VznQC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=%22critical+fallibilism%22&source=bl&ots=fdF8c2mn2W&sig=ACfU3U3CH26nV1j5mOFs7tFxWenVvVUecw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_5-V6YjwAhXUvJ4KHS7qBDIQ6AEwB3oECAkQAw > Lakatos introduced the term fallibilism, adapted from Popper's "critical fallibilism," into the philosophy of mathematics. https://books.google.com/books?id=R30fEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=%22critical+fallibilism%22&source=bl&ots=b61mVxf2dZ&sig=ACfU3U0-nUMsHyUD34k_eyVOmuYJ6Wq-3w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwig_5-V6YjwAhXUvJ4KHS7qBDIQ6AEwCXoECAoQAw#v=onepage&q=%22critical%20fallibilism%22&f=false > He terms this philosophy 'critical fallibilism', and it maintains that all scientific theory and knowledge is falsifiable. https://brill.com/view/book/9789004360174/B9789004360174-s024.xml > 2.1 Kant’s Critical Fallibilism https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/228644053.pdf > Karl Popper advocated his theory of critical fallibilism as a potential solution to the Humean problem of induction. and > Popper fully accepted Hume’s rejection of the logic of induction and proposed as part of his own solution to the problem of induction an approach often referred to as critical fallibilism (Bailey, 2000; Swartz, Perkinson, & Edgerton, 1980) or critical rationalism (Miller, 1983; Ormerod, 2009). Not sure why a few people seem to think CR is called CF. CR is Popper's own name for it, so this is odd. I'd literally never heard of CR being called CF before and there's almost nothing on Google about it. The CF naming cites in the last quote go to: https://www.amazon.com/Education-Open-Society-Schooling-Routledge-ebook/dp/B07BY5R9SV https://www.amazon.com/Knowledge-Fallibilism-Essays-Improving-Education/dp/0814778089/ Both of which have zero Amazon reviews. I have a folder with 63 Popper books and articles (and some Popper-related ones), including some duplicates. Searching it for the text "critical fallibilism" has zero results while "critical rationalism" has 33 results. In C&R Popper writes: > This answer sums up a position which I propose to call ‘critical rationalism’. I think it's OK for me to use CF. CR has its own, different name (CR), which Popper chose in print. Anyone know why anyone is at all is trying to call Popper's philosophy by a different name than Popper himself did? I'm find with having a name *similar* to Popper's. That's intentional. My epistemology builds most on Popper. I'm trying to improve CR. Anyway I think it's OK to ignore a few obscure mentions and use CF. Feedback? curi at 3:32 PM on April 18, 2021 | #1 | reply | quote Some of the hits make it sound like Popper may have used the CF term in the original German edition of LScD. Not sure. curi at 3:41 PM on April 18, 2021 | #2 | reply | quote No one cared enough to own the .com (which I bought) which is a pretty good sign it's not taken: https://www.criticalfallibilism.com curi at 4:08 PM on April 18, 2021 | #4 | reply | quote #1 > I think it's OK to ignore a few obscure mentions and use CF. I think it depends some on how much you care about other people using CF. A term that you are the first originator/user of could be easier / clearer for you to own than something with prior, if obscure, references. Your enemies or ppl who are just dumb/confused/wrong might post crap as CF, and claim they're as entitled to use the name CF for their crap as you are since you didn't originate CF. Andy Dufresne at 4:14 PM on April 19, 2021 | #5 | reply | quote HN lets logged-in users set the color of the top bar. That could be helpful here. If someone has purchased multiple accounts, they could set the color differently for different accounts to help remind them who they are posting as. Alisa at 4:42 PM on April 19, 2021 | #6 | reply | quote I thought of a problem. I'll want to post all my stuff in Unbounded. But people will want to reply in Casual. And I want people to be able to make casual comments about my articles, give feedback, etc. But then they'll have to start a new thread in Casual, link my post, possibly quote parts b/c it isn't on the same page, and that will really explicitly show they are going out of their way to avoid criticism, and it's too much barrier to entry and they won't do it as much – it'll reduce casual responses a lot. I don't think making duplicate copies of my posts in both sections – with completely separate replies – is a good solution. That's bad for readers b/c the discussion of that article is split into two places. Like even if we could automate that, it'd still be problematic. Having people do essentially the same thing ad hoc isn't better. Not sure what to do about this. Even if you could tag individual messages as Unbounded or Casual (I'm not sure that Discourse or some of the other forum options would support that), having them mixed together in the same topic would be problematic. People might not pay attention to the tags or forget about it – it's not as clear a distinction as subforums. People might not feel safe if they see criticism they wouldn't want right next to their comment, or they might feel irrational about opting out of criticism more in this situation. People might also feel ignored if there are some people writing Unbounded comments and then all the comments a Casual tag just get no replies but people are active in the thread. Ideas? curi at 6:21 PM on April 19, 2021 | #7 | reply | quote Thanks for saying in advance that the FI group and this site will go mostly inactive. May I still react to things posted there? Julia at 4:30 PM on April 25, 2021 | #8 | reply | quote > One awkwardness is people might consent to receive criticism but then want to back out after receiving some criticism, but I don't want to delete analysis that's already written, nor do I want to stop analyzing something if I started posting analysis and thinking it through and still have more to say, nor do I want to stop other people from taking an interest, responding to my analysis, starting their own analysis, etc. after critical analysis has begun. Thoughts on how to handle that? I published some dart packages last year and the repository made a big deal about the idea that *publishing now is committing to publishing forever*. You can unlist and mark as discontinued, but can't delete. From memory there was a more detailed disclaimer (than their docs, below), but this was the best I could find. The other disclaimer came up when publishing a new package for the first time, IIRC. IMO something like this could work. Like: a warning that you can opt out in future but you can't delete posts. (depending on policy) and the relevant admin options for context Max at 1:33 AM on April 29, 2021 | #9 | reply | quote People using your old code later and people criticizing you or your ideas later are pretty different experiences. Anonymous at 9:27 AM on April 29, 2021 | #10 | reply | quote #10 > People using your old code later and people criticizing you or your ideas later are pretty different experiences. Maybe we have different ideas about the goal/context? I was thinking they were similar b/c once you post in Unbounded then other discussions will use that post as a dependency. That seems like a similar situation. There are also other similarities, like between *ppl using your code for stuff you don't like* and *ppl having discussions you don't like*. The goal of the disclaimer would be to make sure ppl knew what they were getting in to, and to help them realize that it's not just about the discussion they want to have. It marks a line in the sand, and ppl can't claim they weren't told. Anon or pseudonymous accounts could be a useful thing here, too -- that option could be mentioned in the disclaimer. I guess that ppl who get criticism they don't want will react more intensely when it's tied to their IRL identity (which also means other stuff could come into it, like their job mb). Max at 7:07 PM on April 30, 2021 | #11 | reply | quote My current plan is to use *Ghost* for publishing articles (webpages and email) and *Discourse* for discussion. They will both be at criticalfallibilism.com (subdomain for the forum). **Does anyone have criticism of Ghost and Discourse?** Any problems? Any reasons they won't be satisfactory for the next 10 years? I'll stop using Mailchimp newsletter, Discord, Basecamp and google group. Use curi.us much less and leave it with only a few people with accounts being able to post comments. I'll have two *YouTubes* (curi one and more curated CF one). I'll also keep *Gumroad* (I just updated that by bundling all the lower value products so it's better curated). I think I'll stop updating my podcast and just put stuff on YouTube. I won't significantly use twitter, reddit, facebook, instagram, etc. So consolidating to fewer things. Focusing on web articles, email, web forum, and YouTube. I won't have an active chatroom because I want people to use the forum instead. For Subscribestar, I think I may delete all the perks, and also stop sending out extra content to people who pay. My current plan is not to have a private or semi-private section of the forum, nor to have paid-only content with Ghost (which currently supports a single price tier of paid membership). I do plan to have a more gentle or casual forum section, with less scary unbounded criticism, which should provide some of what people want from privacy. A forum account that can post will cost$20. The goal of the price is to improve discussion quality and reduce harassment.

curi at 6:46 PM on May 5, 2021 | #12 | reply | quote

> **Does anyone have criticism of Ghost and Discourse?**

Flux had a discourse forum for a while (mostly 2016-17) -- it died due to some persistant issue + failing upgrades. IDK if it played a role, but we had some custom stuff, like a plugin for letsencrypt to do https (that sort of thing is std/supported now I think); no super fancy custom stuff tho.

It's possible that I could have migrated the backup to a new version, but it was going to be many hours of work and ended up being too much hassel.

The persistant issues were getting worse over time; the site would become unresponsive and throw like error 500s and things. There wasn't anything obviously wrong that I found debugging; like the disk wasn't full, etc.

I found that the way they used docker and did upgrades through their own version manager tool thing made things a lot harder. Part of that problem was probably that I didn't do regular upgrades, so mb a cron job would have prevented my issues, IDK. Also, it meant that accessing backup data and attempting to do a manual restore was more complex.

IDK if any of this is relevant now considering the experience is like 4-5 years old now, but wanted to mention.

Max at 12:51 AM on May 6, 2021 | #13 | reply | quote

> I'll stop using Mailchimp newsletter, Discord, Basecamp and google group. Use curi.us much less and leave it with only a few people with accounts being able to post comments.

I have some kind of attachment to/fondness for the Discord, even though I haven't used it much lately myself. I'm not offering that as a reason you should continue using it, though. And if you're not gonna use it then keeping it around looks bad in the same way that SENS linking a bunch of dead stuff looks bad.

Anonymous at 8:05 AM on May 6, 2021 | #14 | reply | quote

#13

> but we had some custom stuff, like a plugin for letsencrypt to do https

ya i think there's digital ocean stuff to do SSL. I haven't set it up yet because I wanted to keep things simple. I'm also a bit wary because I managed to trash my own sites trying to set up SSL before. Right now for my own sites I'm using CloudFlare "Flexible" SSL just so that modern browsers don't get all aggro about it

Justin Mallone at 8:07 AM on May 6, 2021 | #15 | reply | quote

some modern browsers are starting to complain loudly about insecure sites

Anonymous at 8:08 AM on May 6, 2021 | #16 | reply | quote

Discourse is pretty big and 5 years of development probably helped, and I don't think I need any plugins (except https if that requires one? i haven't looked into that at all). I don't have more confidence in some alternative.

If Discourse breaks too badly, they have export options, and also if necessary I could pay them to host it and then they'll make it work.

curi at 8:55 AM on May 6, 2021 | #17 | reply | quote

First draft of forum categories that I set up:

curi at 9:37 AM on May 6, 2021 | #18 | reply | quote

actually some plugins look nice

https://www.discourse.org/plugins

subscriptions, sitemap, data explorer, checklist, oauth, docs, graphviz, footnote, mathjax

i think those are all standard plugins, not third party, that are unlikely to cause trouble?

curi at 9:38 AM on May 6, 2021 | #19 | reply | quote

not sure if oauth is a good idea or not. thoughts?

curi at 9:39 AM on May 6, 2021 | #20 | reply | quote

i'm trying to keep forum categories simple and also i realized that sub-categories show up in the main category. so if you have unbounded/other then posts for that will be visible in unbounded, so that doesn't work. it's not meant to have an empty unbounded category with main/debate/other within it. categories don't really work as subforum grouping labels. but i think the ones i made are ok.

curi at 9:46 AM on May 6, 2021 | #21 | reply | quote

re: categories - suppose I want to post about a learning programming project and get thoughts from other people, primarily about that topic. does that go in Friendly? Other? Am I at the wrong board?

Anonymous at 10:39 AM on May 6, 2021 | #22 | reply | quote

Should there be a learning project category?

Anonymous at 10:40 AM on May 6, 2021 | #23 | reply | quote

Someone might read existing categories and see: 1) Debate zone, 2) Chit-chat, 3) Random. Are they gonna have a bad time?

Anonymous at 10:41 AM on May 6, 2021 | #24 | reply | quote

maybe learning-project is a tag level idea

Anonymous at 10:44 AM on May 6, 2021 | #25 | reply | quote

> suppose I want to post about a learning programming project and get thoughts from other people, primarily about that topic. does that go in Friendly

yes in Friendly

> Should there be a learning project category?

no, that goes in Unbounded or Friendly, your choice.

> Someone might read existing categories and see: 1) Debate zone, 2) Chit-chat, 3) Random. Are they gonna have a bad time?

do you having naming suggestions that'd be clearer?

Anonymous at 10:46 AM on May 6, 2021 | #26 | reply | quote

curi at 10:46 AM on May 6, 2021 | #27 | reply | quote

maybe i should rename Friendly to something like "Learning and Discussion" and then say some friendly stuff in the description?

it's really the Bounded category but i don't want to name it that way. the point is you can pick unbounded or bounded discussion (or off topic for politics, news, gaming, food, music, celebs, movies, tv, etc, tho anything can be on topic if you actually analyze it and treat it seriously.

so philosophy discussion (very broadly), divided into bounded or not, and then off topic.

curi at 10:49 AM on May 6, 2021 | #28 | reply | quote

> > Someone might read existing categories and see: 1) Debate zone, 2) Chit-chat, 3) Random. Are they gonna have a bad time?

> do you having naming suggestions that'd be clearer?

could be something like "Criticism Level: Unbounded" and "Criticism Level: Friendly" to really try to emphasize what you're choosing between in the different forums, but that's maybe a bit long and I dunno how other fits in there

Anonymous at 10:51 AM on May 6, 2021 | #29 | reply | quote

a problem with

- Unbounded

- Learning & Discussion

- Other

is that it implies that learning and discussion do NOT go in unbounded, since they have their own separate category. but they are also what unbounded consists of.

Anonymous at 10:51 AM on May 6, 2021 | #30 | reply | quote

I've been the "other" anon here btw. It'll be nicer having anon discussions on the discourse :)

Justin Mallone at 10:52 AM on May 6, 2021 | #31 | reply | quote

#22 through 25, #29 were me

Justin Mallone at 10:54 AM on May 6, 2021 | #32 | reply | quote

mb i should just name it Bounded

curi at 10:54 AM on May 6, 2021 | #33 | reply | quote

I moved more text out of the first paragraphs. Here are current full descriptions:

---

# Unbounded

Critical discussion seeking progress without topic boundaries.

Expect difficult criticism about topics that you didn't intentionally bring up. Some effort to follow up on your messages is expected.

Criticism may discuss your dishonesty, emotions, incompetence, evasion, patterns of error, discussion methodology, morality, or life decisions. You may be criticized for ending a topic without reaching a conclusion. Your time management and prioritization decisions may be criticized.

If you stop responding, people may still analyze what you said and critically discuss it without you. You can't take your posts back or delete them (you can say that you changed your mind, but can't hide the past).

Any thoughtful topics are fine except politics and news. Good topics include: philosophy, rationality, learning, thinking methodology, discussion organization, morality, memes, science, history, writing, grammar, math, evolution, programming, statistics, economics, political philosophy, psychology, psychiatry, parenting, education, relationships, atheism, skepticism, business, sales, marketing, art, design, social dynamics, culture, and decisions people face in their lives.

---

# Friendly

Discuss, think and learn with a friendlier atmosphere. Avoid tangential, meta or harsh criticism.

In Friendly, posters choose what topics they want to discuss. Suppose someone posts a physics question. Don't reply about how their question reveals that they're dishonest, emotional or overreaching. Don't criticize them for ending the discussion early or for not doing Paths Forward. Those would be topic changes away from their intended topic (physics). If you do want replies like that, put your topic in Unbounded.

Any thoughtful topics are fine except politics and news. Good topics include: philosophy, rationality, learning, thinking methodology, discussion organization, morality, memes, science, history, writing, grammar, math, evolution, programming, statistics, economics, political philosophy, psychology, psychiatry, parenting, education, relationships, atheism, skepticism, business, sales, marketing, art, design, social dynamics, culture, and decisions people face in their lives.

curi at 11:38 AM on May 6, 2021 | #34 | reply | quote

Fixed typo in Other description and edited full description to:

Off-topic discussions such as politics and news.

You can post about video games, food, tv, music, etc. You can post stuff that isn't intellectual or isn't of general interest.

Note: Any topic can go in Unbounded or Friendly if treated thoughtfully, e.g. using song lyrics as an example to criticize popular culture. But avoid starting debates about current politics outside of Other.

curi at 11:42 AM on May 6, 2021 | #35 | reply | quote

#17

> Discourse is pretty big and 5 years of development probably helped, and I don't think I need any plugins (except https if that requires one? i haven't looked into that at all).

I agree. The letsencrypt plugin was 3rd party when I used it (letsencrypt was really new at that point, but since then IME all the plugins and tools based on it are pretty easy and reliable)

#19

> i think those are all standard plugins, not third party, that are unlikely to cause trouble?

I guess that 1st party plugins will be supported -> unlikely to cause issues. They're probably structured as plugins to keep things maintainable and out of the core codebase (which makes sense). A lot of the plugins you mentioned sound useful.

#20

> not sure if oauth is a good idea or not. thoughts?

IMO it doesn't matter that much. It makes it easier for ppl to register I guess b/c there's no separate user/pass combo for the site. One *major* reason that oauth might be good is that it can be linked to existing accounts that have some reputation (e.g., github). might be useful for anti-spam/harassment. However, it might de-anon ppl depending on how discourse handles it (e.g., shows ppl the account mb; IDK how discourse works particularly in that regard).

#28

> maybe i should rename Friendly to something like "Learning and Discussion" and then say some friendly stuff in the description?

IDK; I think naming it Friendly and saying stuff about learning and discussion in the description might be better.

Some thoughts: It sort of feels like the friendly section is for practicing philosophy like you'd practice skills for a sport -- it's a section to *focus* on particular things. Whereas the unbounded section is more like actually competing in the sport/game/thing. Like: you don't get to reset if you make a mistake in a game, and you don't get to avoid criticisms in unbounded.

Max at 4:03 PM on May 6, 2021 | #36 | reply | quote

#### discourse alternative; mb worth looking into

FYI, last year I found a competitor (v similar forum product) to discourse that I think is worth checking out: https://www.talkyard.io/

Mb the featureset / integrations aren't competitive, tho.

Looks like the code is 50/50 typescript and scala. https://github.com/debiki/talkyard

The reason I like and use talkyard is that there's comments integration for blogs and it allows anonymous comments/posts. Here's an example of a forum thread that got created for comments, and the blog post where the comments are hosted:

Max at 4:10 PM on May 6, 2021 | #37 | reply | quote

> Currently planning to name it Critical Fallibilism b/c that sounds like the name of a philosophy. It has downsides (particularly it could sound too sophisticated and intimidate people).

one thing I have noticed is that "Fallibilism" seems like a particularly easy word to typo. Maybe it's the 3 L's and I's in fairly rapid succession. I don't have a better alternative - just sharing a thought.

Anonymous at 9:54 AM on May 9, 2021 | #38 | reply | quote

Want to discuss this? Join my forum.

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